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NCWC
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« on: March 31, 2007, 01:22:36 PM »

Just wanted to tell you I really admire what you are doing. I come from the Jun Fan/ JKD wing/branch-distant cousin
of WC and I have often dispaired that what I saw as the workable elements in WC were so terribly represented to the public. WC is a reason-based art; it gives a template for asking questions and finding answers in a realistic environment(combat) that demands the answers be truthful. But too often I find that WC artists are the least reason-based, least realistic of martial artists. The crap I hear?
"My art is too deadly to compete, spar (or practice against non-compliant partners)"
"I've never been taken down in my school that doesn't practice takedowns, so I don't think I ever will".
etc etc.
Guys who have never hit a moving target will lecture you ad nauseam about chi and internal shock wave damage and fa jing. (sigh). Regardless of their differences, I think JKD has been useful to WC advocates who watched seminars who saw similar movements (lets say, lop sau to hit to armbar) taught ina completely alive and non-coperative way.The same way that boxers, wrestlers and soldiers train. After training alive, I've often thought of the arts that could change very few techniques and be sucessful in fighting, and WC is at the top.
But to begin training alive means eating fist for awhile, and few people have the healthy egos and can see the big picture enough to do that. And I admire that of the club. You know you have to start somewhere, you have a plan, you know you'll take some hits while you learn to adapt to fighting unfamiliar styles, and it doesn't bother you. I think that's great. I think the club will go far if it maintains that attitude.
One of the benefits of exposure of MMA training methods through media is that so many artists can now see real, state of the art training methods for fighting. I didn't say fighting techniques, I said training methods. I think in the next couple of years we'll see other "trad" arts keep their traditional "style" of combat but update their training method, and we'll see serious, hardcore competitors from lots of arts some deem outdated and ineffectual now.
I imagine I'm a tai chi player. I get up and do my road work to the gym. I skip rope, do joint rotations, and run through the form a couple of times. I have a fight coming up, so I spend less of my training on forms than fighting techniques. My partner shows up. We work on slow, technical throws and groundfighting for an hour. I go work on the heavy bag for a while, whipping palms and snapping knuckles in the bag. I work on the throwing dummy for a while, and then lift weights before I go home. I'll be back later that day for live sparring to prepare for my fight. Lucky for me I have a variety of stylists from different backgrounds to roll with. I respect their art, and they respect mine.
To me this scenario sounds plausible, and I look forward to it happening. When artists stop hiding behind "My art is too dangerous" BS, they will really grow as fighters.
The dog brothers have a kali program called Kali Tudo that trains kali for the cage, Tim Cartmell, a Tai Chi practioner and BJJ black belt, is training fighters for MMA. Interesting things are coming, if people keep training and challenging themselves and keep their training "Reason-based". And I applaud you for leading the way as part of the WC tribe.
WC has been so fractious precisely because  their students refused to ever fight or spar each other that people, being insecure of their actual fighting abilities, put their time into insults to prove their abilities.
The inevitable WC YouTube warrior that shouts "His WC is terrible! You can tell he studied with Blank because his Bong Sau is too (high, low, bent, not bent enough..). He would die in a street fight! (sigh)
Thanks for putting your chin on the line for what can be a great fighting art.
You might look into Larry Hartsells books and videos. He has some excellent work detailing flow from WC style bridging/trapping into locking/takedowns to submission. Most of it is 30 years old, as he was pretty ahead of his time. He flows nicely from JKD/WC into shootfighting and BJJ. I imagine some of what you are working on would be similar. Anyway, again, congratulations for your work.
jon
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fingers
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2007, 06:57:01 PM »

sloppy wing chun, is what this jkd guy is trying to say...

we didn't have the information back then & so we're trying to make it up now?
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chainpunch
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2007, 12:09:28 AM »

Your post is pretty constructive maybe. I got some things to think about also.

WC has a pretty bad rep and i am often embarrassed by it because it should be something great but the people that push it in the open are the same as most other traditional styles. You can just substitute Wing Chun and put in any number of styles and your comments will still be accurate: My art is too deadly to compete, spar (or practice against non-compliant partners)"
"I've never been taken down in my school that doesn't practice takedowns, so I don't think I ever will".
etc etc.

You could be talking about any number of arts and it still applies.

In general most arts have lost its usability. The ones that donít spar donít have a clue and the ones that spar a lot, well you can tell that the usefulness has gone away too. Escrima for example trains complicated routines but when they go at it looks just like anyone one else. I am generalizing of course but the main point i am making is that most arts can not mass produce good fighters.

Old way verses the modern way thatís no good comparison either. What makes you think the new ways are any better? You think the fighters of today have the insight of 1000+ years of fighting or do they just train hard? Most people donít have a clue what the old way is in the first place. They only know what was taught to them. Karate is considered traditional but modern karate is not even 100 years old and was made not for fighting. Even the system that led to karate looks just like any other similar system in the ring. Benny the Jet is a world famous kick boxer but he was a karate trained person.

You will have just a hard a time of finding a great WC guy as I will have finding a great JKD guy. Not saying that to put your style down just saying JKD has got as many problems as any other style. You can be a JKD instructor just by going to seminars. I need not say more for people to understand what that will lead to.

The subject of "real" or "combat" that is pretty subjective. Many people think they train for real. Fact is every one has a different idea of what real is and everyone just thinks about certain situations. That is the main factor when one style is clueless about countering another. They did not consider enough a certain method of attack well enough.

Interesting you use soldiers. What army are you referring to because it cannot be the US military's hand to hand system? We can even pretend its good for a minute but US soldiers do not train hand to hand to proficiency. Not since the WW2 combatives Fairbairn and Applegate has the US military done anything worth while in the realm of hand to hand. Many Special Forces teams have the luxury of hiring martial artist of their choosing but since sep 11 the military has gone with the concept of quick and easy to teach over usefulness.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 08:02:04 PM by godspawned » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 11:01:53 AM »

Yes, my comments could apply to other arts, but I feel they are more true perhaps for WC. WC is very combat oriented, but often is taught in a way that lessens that aspect of the art.

The ancient masters have alot to offer us, but modern training is light years beyond what they were doing in terms of training methods. Improvements in physical training methods offer us ways to improve our skills if we learn and train them. Periodization of training, weight training, tapering and peaking, psychological readiness, these are methods used by boxers and Olympic athletes, MMA elite, and they work. When other arts began training alive and with these methods, their abilities will jump and we will see arts compete we don't see compete now. Tae kwon do has a bad rap, but Olympic tae kwon do uses state of the art training that results in amazing athletes. Other arts could learn from their training methods without accepting thier techniques. Would you accept the medical procedures from 200 years ago on your body? Of course not. So why accept the physical training methods?

Yes the US H2H program is not great. I just meant they don't spend their time doing compliant exercises or chi sao before going off to fight. When you work a technique your partner should be attempting to keep you from working that technique. Non-compliance.
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chainpunch
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 03:02:43 PM »

Yes, i understand where you are coming from and i agree with most of your points. My point is that you cant control who teaches and what their perspective is. When you say "combat" that can mean anything because what is combat? Is BJJ combat? just put on standard US army equipment and you will see that BJJ does not make sense at all if you have on that gear. I dont even think that the army needs to train regular soldiers in hand to hand because the idea is remote in todays day and age. It also takes longer to get something worth while out of training even if it were good. Much more time than the military can commit due to time constraints. Solider needs to be proficient with his weapon and when it runs out melee and bayonet.

I totally agree that the techniques need to be worked to a level where the opponent does not co-operate. Most schools dont produce fighter so they dont really have a choice.

Medicine that is 2000 years old? Hey, i see your point but you know what i have faith in 2000 year old medicine. I studied some in china last fall and going back hopefully to pursue a masters degree. Comparing notes with the visiting American students it seems that in the US combining eastern and western theory produces unsatisfactory results. The ancient methods were proven then as is today. Yes there are some traditional doctors that are ineffective and there are more so than not western doctors that dont know really what to do they just guess because the western medicine cannot cure any root cause only relive symptoms. Often the medicine has damaging effects on other parts of the body. Most modern martial arts do not look like they have all these years of evolution. I find that today most people are just unlocking what was known before. Fighting evolves and de-evolves depending on need. We dont need to fight just entertain ourselves, satisfy some personal desires.

"Periodization of training, weight training, tapering and peaking, psychological readiness, these are methods used by boxers and Olympic athletes, MMA elite" many achient training methods are rediscovered today, these things have been done before. Most (most not all) record breakers in our day are done by people who have a chemical advantage over athletics of the past.

TKD is the worst art to defend, sorry. Great athletics maybe but fighters i dont know. Potential movie stars more like.

Not my intention to counter everything you said. My point is that this stuff was already here and was good but chinese styles in particular are so secretive that the people that promote it either dont value the secrete or never knew it to begin. Now the key to the secrete is easy you had to give your life to the cause you had to train until you could not stand it anymore. Today only the top people in their styles understand their method because they know this. I never worry today if i come across any particular style. I worry about the man i am confronted by. Is he naturally better than me or has he trained harder than me. Only things i consider. Never really will he grab or punch will he trap or evade.
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godspawned
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 08:14:25 PM »

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Periodization of training, weight training, tapering and peaking, psychological readiness, these are methods used by boxers and Olympic athletes, MMA elite, and they work. When other arts began training alive and with these methods, their abilities will jump and we will see arts compete we don't see compete now.

I want to pip inon one point - the modern training methods.  I do not think they are better than the older ones.  Even today, just like chainpunch said, we are unlocking things that have been done for thousands of years already and were forgotten or passed down in smaller groups.  I mean take a close look at a lot of the modern exercises the pros use and you will see the ones that train functional strength are the old ones.  Kettlebells, Rope Pulling, body-weight exercises, etc, etc.  The cutting edge places like IntoCombat are just now maybe starting to evolve some of the older functional methods with modern concepts to take things a step forward.  But all the ideas you presented I think have been well known for centuries.

I train around modern MMA pros now and see what they do.  Honestly, I was very surprised at how little they do compared to what I did in Wing Chun, and how much stronger I was than many of them in a variety of areas.  Of course they were stronger in some others, but the old ways of training I did were in many ways light years ahead of what they were doing - and I never even hit the high levels in the old exercises.   

Just my thoughts on that part.  For functional strength and fighting power the old exercises rule supreme.  For bodybuilding and etc modern methods are great. 

A
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