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Author Topic: beginning wing chun  (Read 29924 times)
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Yoshiyahu
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2008, 04:00:02 PM »

I hear some interesting discussion concerning Basics. In my opinion Sil Lum Tao is not basic. As it was explain to me it is a Kung. One of three Kungs you develop in WingChun. Sil Lum Tao was taught to me as means to develop Short power.

When I think of basics I think of foundational teachings which will make you strong.

Basics:
Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma (Stance)
Steps
Punches
Down Punch
1000 chain punches
Torque Punch
Rotating side punch
Moving side punch
etc

Kicks
Stamp Kick
Jamming kick
Piercing Kick
Ciruclar Kick
etc etc

Basic Drills like
Lop Sau
Jut Sau
Defensive drills
Tan Sau
Jum Sau
etc etc.

To me these are basics that help develop your muscular memory and condition you and mold you into a Wing Chun Fighter.

Now each lineage has different basics they stress the most but I just wanted to share my opinion. I think all the forms should be practiced but I believe the basics to not be the forms but the other drills that build you up.
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Atomos
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2008, 11:26:47 PM »

The demonstration of the full form can be completed in about 2 minutes. And thank you for your comment it made me see a little clearer!

There's a reason I asked. Maybe you already know but if you don't you should. You should be able to stand in Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma for a very long time without moving. An aspect of training I believe many neglect (including myself). The first section of Sil Lim Tao (the tan and fuk saos going back and forth) should last about forty minutes or longer if you can. I'll be honest with you and say that I don't usually do this; but it is important non-the-less. It's basically meditation. The goal being to stay focused on what you're doing for a long period of time. The mind will tend to wander but you must gently bring it back (read up about meditation if you want more tips... or maybe you already practice it). Why is focus so important? Why are martial artists so fast? Because as they get good their focus encompasses more things and slows down their perception of time. If you throw a bunch of chain punches at a newbie he'll get lost after the first two but a trained Wing Chun practitioner should be able to stand up to many and ideally counter with something. Also, practicing the form for that long will improve the strength of your stance, making you harder to move. If you haven't tried this yet and it sounds easy or boring just attempt to stand in Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma for 25 minutes with good form (knees bent, hips forward, fist tucked as high and far back as you can without the elbows pointing outward, eyes forward, tongue on the rough of the mouth, everything). Staying focused on good form should keep your mind busy and you'll probably be sweeting by about 10-15 minutes in.

I agree Yoshiyaku that the forms aren't the basics. But I do believe Sil Lim Tao to be among the basics and one of the most important things to practice. You should definitely make sure your basic techniques, strikes and stances are well trained before Sil Lim Tao though. It's never a bad idea to drill the techniques.
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Yoshiyahu
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2008, 01:38:03 PM »

Atomos. I am glad you brought up the discussion of Sil Lum Tao being done slowly. My Sifu said That if you practice it slow enough it should take you an hour or two to finish. He told me to practice at three speeds. Fast with flow. Medium speed with power. An really slow with no force.

But I agree, I also practice Sil Lum Tao atleast ten times. Also concerning the Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma.
Yes, correct holding this horse stance builds up Chi in legs and body. You will learn through breathing naturally how to cylone you Chi through out you body. Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma also builds your Foundation and helps you find you center of gravity. Its important because if you have a strong root you channel force and power from the ground through your feet,joints,knees,hips,waist, Chest, an with the release of the Curl through your Arms and fist.

Yes I agree I take time out at work to practice just the stance or standing on one leg. Sometimes I go to bathroom an practice one of the forms. We have a pretty big stall in office I work at. But for Sil Lum Tao I learn how to practice in every space no matter how small. This way I can prepared if I am fighting in a small space.

Anyway,Please tell me about more of the benefits of Practing Sil Lum Tao and Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma?
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Southpaw
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2008, 01:59:47 PM »

Spending an hour on SLT?Huh

My God you must have a lot of spare time on your hands.


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Yoshiyahu
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2008, 07:03:07 PM »

Well of course thats theory. I believe Yip Man also practice for an Hour doing just Sil Lum Tao. I have found that form also builds chi. its like doing Chi Kung the Wing Chun way!
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stingray
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2008, 07:34:30 PM »

{The ghost of bruce lee in your basement?}


Seriously! what are u talking about? u are crazy! anyway, i do have someone who is helping me i have learned the three basic forms and i apply them as they were meant he (if he see's a problem) will correct me. we work through different drills and switch about every four or five days!  I practice Wing Chun!  If i didnt, i dont know where these forms come from! Or y i practice them everyday at 5 am.
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stingray
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2008, 07:38:55 PM »

Yoshiyahu!

Thanks i have not been doing any of that. I would stretch it ( The full form) out to about twenty minutes, but i understand it because i have taken tai chi. Also have been working on developing my Qi! So not only can i do that but i can intergrate it! and thanks for the other advice! u gotta ignore that guy he is out there!
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the pint
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2008, 01:01:48 AM »

Glad to hear it. You started off training on your own with DVDs. You agreed to find a training partner after advise. Then you introduced an experienced training partner you had all along, but stated you have no teacher. Now your training partner is actually a teacher, correcting your mistakes etc. Quite a development in the space of a few days!

And you say to ignore me, that I am 'out there'. Perhaps, but Im no bullsh*tter, and my life is real.

Or am I imagining all this? (cant be bothered to re-read the thread). Im thinking your next development has to be that you have been training at a class all along.

Im glad if you do (if you do) have instruction after all, as without it you would seriously struggle to learn wing chun. Its hard enough with it.

As for the '3 basic forms' - I have found them anything but basic. I have struggled with the empty hand forms. After over 5 years I am still only up to the 3rd section of the 3rd form. And as for chum kil, it took me over 6 months of practicing just the turns for 20 minutes every day to get the turn correct!

But you have covered the entire system in 6 months! Interesting approach. Different than the normal build up from the base method, learning it all at once.

Forget all the rest, the actual application of wing chun, personally I would really like to see your forms. Especially chum kil.
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stingray
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2008, 05:33:00 AM »

Dude!
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stingray
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2008, 05:51:39 AM »

I dont know what ur problem is? I said before i had someone who had some knowledge in WC! He is no master and is not teaching me, only progressing with with me he knows more but only because of his dedication and he doesn't want to travel to this place in Andover either, so we try to help each other out! And the reason that it took u so long with chum kiu it seems is a lack of practice. When i get back to that form it will be practiced for about six hours a day for about four days the form broken down then with the partner to work through the particular movements one at a time in repetition and then the full form then i will move to another form after the four days. I am not judging u, just saying i understand the complex nature and how hard it is, but with much practice it comes much quicker than with a little!  My life is real, i am sorry that i have led u to believe that i was changing all the time. that was sarcastic when i said i will find one. How could u ever learn a form of fighting without someone to fight with? i wish i had a teacher but i don't! and its not worth mt time to find one around here!
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the pint
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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2008, 07:24:43 AM »

My problem is with your inconsistencies, and some of the dumb things you have said.

How could you ever learn a form of fighting wihtout someone to fight with? Exactly. Re-read this thread and see how it reads. You may see where I am coming from.

The reason that it took me so long with chum kil is attention to detail and getting it right, not lack of practice! I train for a couple of hours most days, and that is plenty.
I would spend 20 minutes turning 180 and 90 degrees on the spot just to get the hip motion and energy down. Slight structural issues here create a massive difference.
I must admit several years on I am still developing the torque through increacing refinement of the muscle mechanics behind this seemingly simple movement.
But I am not going to spend 2 hours a day on it. Or 6!

You say with much practice it comes much quicker than with a little - true - but only if what you are practicing is correct. If it isnt correct, it will take much longer to undo mistakes imprinted into muscle memory, if this is at all possible.

The old tale about the student that asked his sifu how long to learn - '10 years'. "But I am really keen. What if I spend twice as long practicing every day". '"20 years".
Im not going to get into this here though. Its an old martial arts fable, about trying to rush training.

I have seen loads of clips on the net etc of Chum Kil and they just dont have it right. They obviously think they have, they are posting clips of it, but the structure and body unity just isnt there. Only a few clips I have seen have been impressive.

It takes time to develop correctly. Rush, and you may skip building the strong foundations you need.

And as to getting a training partner, get at least 10, preferably more. A mix of big, small, fat, thin, short, tall, strong, sinewey, etc etc.
Then you will really be able to develop.

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the pint
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2008, 07:29:02 AM »

Dont get me wrong, good luck with your training, but if you have so much time to spend, be sure not to waste it, get some skilled input (not off the web!) and your hard work should pay off. It would be terrible to spend so much time learning something to get beasted by a street fighter or whatever.

With full time effort training in MMA you can be in the UFC in 2 years. With the correct mentality and tutors.
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Yoshiyahu
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2008, 07:15:53 PM »

Pint and Stingray. You guys both have some great pointers. You should really draw from one another. Any way I am speaking more on sole practice. But Pint seems to be really sharing the importance of Interaction. Which is what you would get at a school. Also it doesn't hurt to find other Fighters of different styles to hook up with and test your skills with.

I enjoy the discussion. As for learning things wrong. Thats why its so important to have a master to do your form infront of. Also Application while sparring will have you make needed corrections. But there is so much to learn. My Sifu's wingchun brother has been coming to the TaiChi class an sharing Wing Chun with me an some of the other people who have been practicing for decades. Its pretty cool. He is really deep into theory,power and chi application. I think if your ever in STL you should stop by.
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