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[Yoshiyahu]

Luc Sao means Rolling Hands!

[jdsgungfu]

Is that the exercise for kan sau kwan sau, or is it different?

[Yoshiyahu]

Its more like two handed Chi Sao. Where the hands roll back and forth. The Way my Sifu taught me was freestlye Chi Sau where your hands in constant motion from attacking to defending.

[Sir Bustalot]

but isnt freestyle chi sao teaching you some bad habits?

because if a tan sao is out of position, it isnt really a tan sao, same with bong.  If during chi sao youre just flailing your arms blocking the others attacks instead of concentrating on propper positioning and how not to get into a bad position what happens when you do chi sao with someone who can do it right? they will be all over you in a second.

Atleast this is what im taught, either Tan da, lop da, pak da should work in almost every situation, you just have to know which one is best for the specific situation you are in....we arent limited to these attacks/defenses but we are taught that one of those will work in almost every situation....also we arent allowed to lop sao then punch, we are taught everything has to be a two handed technique. So youd have to Lop sao AND punch or in otherwords Lop da....if you do it any other way it is less effective.....


I dunno about you guys but when we are training we are training to fight someone whos an expert at WC, so small mistakes or minor errors will ensure you get hit....There is a few techniques in chi sao that can garantee you a hit, but what is that teaching you and the other guy? it teaches you nothing, and teaches the other guy to be scared to get hit....and he will be more worried about stopping the attack in any way possible as to not get smashed in the face most likely doing sloppy or non WC blocks...

[Yoshiyahu]

Luc Sao is rolling hands Chi Sao!

[Southpaw]

Chi sao took on a whole new meaning to me once I started training bjj.

I found what I've learned very useful in both rolling and stand up judo.

[chainpunch]

So i think southpaw found out why chi sao is important. Application. We dont bound ourselves to chi sao, when we fight we use it to train the hands so that the brain can free it self to think about the big picture.

Chi sao only builds bad habits if you practice bad habits during chi sao. Dont let your hands flail, practice defense not offense. Your brain can think offense while your hands defend and find openings. Dont make openings just to leave your self exposed.

We dont train to fight WC people we train to prevent exposure. Thinking to fight your own style is the down fall of most systems that is why people yearn for mma.

[jdsgungfu]

MMA is a wasted effort of pre-determined positions and endless patterns that lead nowhere. You have to stick with one style if you want to trully understand it, otherwise you are wasting your time.

Combining three or four martial arts from different schools of discipline will not give you a true sense of discipline. Only by following one school can you trully learn from it.

MMA to me is defined by someone who practices a combination of different styles. Yes there are some guys out there who are damn good at it and can beat alot of people. If you practice 3 or four styles of karate and some judo or jujitsu, you are NOT A MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST. IF you practice four or five or more different styles of kung fu, wushu, san shou, or kui jiao you are also not a mixed martial artist.

Someone who practices Jujitsu, Thai boxing, Wrestling, Wing chun, karate, tae kwon do, all together is a mixed martial artist.

In wing chun we learn to see our opponent just as he is. There are no holes or gaps to be exploited when one trully understands and can use Wing chun. A wing chun man will often times learn other styles. This still does not make him a mixed martial artist unless he decides to use those techniques from different schools. Knowing the techniques and using them are two different things.

[jdsgungfu]

Yoshi yahu, thanks for explaining "luc sau". My teacher showed it to me, but I just forgot the name of it.

[Southpaw]

Every single post you write is dumber than the previous one.  That's quite an accomplishment if you read your earlier posts.

MMA is a wasted effort of pre-determined positions and endless patterns that lead nowhere.

Leads to nowhere except profeciency in fighting.  How exactly is that a wasted effort?

You have to stick with one style if you want to trully understand it, otherwise you are wasting your time. 

Your opinion and definitely a sh*tty one.

Combining three or four martial arts from different schools of discipline will not give you a true sense of discipline. Only by following one school can you trully learn from it. 

Are we being lectured on discipline by a homeless guy who has spent time in jail?

MMA to me is defined by someone who practices a combination of different styles. Yes there are some guys out there who are damn good at it and can beat alot of people. If you practice 3 or four styles of karate and some judo or jujitsu, you are NOT A MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST. IF you practice four or five or more different styles of kung fu, wushu, san shou, or kui jiao you are also not a mixed martial artist.

Someone who practices Jujitsu, Thai boxing, Wrestling, Wing chun, karate, tae kwon do, all together is a mixed martial artist. 

Again...all your opinions...and almost all sh*tty ones.  Just a reminder that wing chun was developed by combining different styles. 

In wing chun we learn to see our opponent just as he is. There are no holes or gaps to be exploited when one trully understands and can use Wing chun. A wing chun man will often times learn other styles. This still does not make him a mixed martial artist unless he decides to use those techniques from different schools. Knowing the techniques and using them are two different things.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  But I can tell it is stupid.

[Yoshiyahu]

Actually jdsgungfu My Wing Chun Teacher Did Five animals and Five Elements long before he did Wing Chun. Wing Chun is already a Mixed Martial Art because it combines Snake and Crane. Also the Five Animals and Five Elements are a Mixed Martial Art too.

I think that what ever Art you are practicing one should be core Art. Like you take bits and pieces from all of them. But one is your based. Most MMA guys are either Really Skilled BJJ or Greco Wrestlers. But they add to their art Boxing,Tae Kwon Do and Karate. But there main Fighting style is some form of grappling. An many Striking Art guys practice a little Judo or Chin Na. This can all help in the fight. I see nothing wrong with Grappling all Gung Fu has Grappling. Remember Monkey Gung Fu is ground fighting Art. But in either case I see your point. You have to have a core. Like your Core would be either Shaolin Five Animals or the Wing Chun which you learn a little from both correct.

As for my issue with the MMA. The only thing I dislike about the grappling or wrestling is because I prefer to see people stand up and fight with their style. I do not like Fights that look like wrestling match. I never cared for wrestling that much. I took some Judo, Akido and Kickboxing when I was a kid. My favorite was kick boxing. One reason is because when we sparred in kick boxing it was always the one with the most skill would win. But Akido and Judo we took turns doing drills but we never used in it sparring. I hated that. Back then I had no idea how to use it when ever I had a fight!

I would have to rely on kick boxing!

But don't get me wrong Wrestling is great Art. I just don't care to see people rolling on the ground for a dominant posistion to put their foe into a submission move. At the school I went to fights were rarely one on one. If you went to the ground and started winning chances are one their friends would start stomping you. So I didn't see the importance as a kid. Karate or Wing Chun is great for street fighting.

[jdsgungfu]

I agree with you about that Yoshiyahu, it can all be considered a mixed martial arts. The first wrestlers in history where known to be Greeks (correct me if Im wrong) so I'm sure some of their martial arts was spread to China through the silk road in ancient times.

My style is Southern Shaolin and wing chun. Thanks for remembering that.

I don't really care about all the negative hype I get, because this has all happened before. Guess there is nothing I can do about it except mind my own buisness....

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With wing chun there are so many things you can do. It is possible to have any block used multiple different ways and every strike can be used as a block too. I use alot of techniques that involve doubled up blocks and strikes. Some wing chunners don't use those at all.

I read books and see alot of different styles of Wing chun out there. Most of Yip Man's books and what are taught in them are exactly what my sihing showed to me. I guess there should be respect there for every linneage though. Each person in Wing chun contributes alot to the style. Even if they are a beginner who has
no skill, their wing chun will grow and blossum into better days with more skills to use and learn from.

Wrestling is the oldest art form of kung fu in China from what I've heard. I agree it can seem a bit redundant the way they roll around ontop of each other without just getting up and striking it out. The greatest thing about kung fu and wrestling, to me, is avoiding the takedowns. There is a ton of ways to keep yourself on your feet.

The bon sau (bong sau) is one of the most effective blocks in wrestling to use. Not only can it block strikes to the chest and head, but it can be used as a leverage point from underneath an opponent. If you use wing chun correctly (i've heard) you can avoid a groundfight all together!

[Yoshiyahu]

Posted by: jdsgungfu

The first wrestlers in history where known to be Greeks (correct me if Im wrong) so I'm sure some of their martial arts was spread to China through the silk road in ancient times.

The Greeks were not first Wrestlers. Actually they got the concept of Wrestling from Asia and Africa. But Since we live in European dominated society we believe all civilization came from greece first. Actually the Greeks came from uncivilized people who dwelled in Caves before they journeyed to Asia and Africa. From this places they stole Science,Math and Fighting concepts along with alot of other stuff.

[8bit]

Its rediculous to think that wresling originated anywhere! I've heard this a lot from BJJ people - some sort of illogical argument that all wresling came from Greece. That's just stupid. Anyone who has ever had brothers (or puppies?) knows that wresling is a spontaneous and innate act. Wresling began at the dawn of time along with brothers and puppies.

[the pint]

Its rediculous to think that wresling originated anywhere! I've heard this a lot from BJJ people - some sort of illogical argument that all wresling came from Greece. That's just stupid. Anyone who has ever had brothers (or puppies?) knows that wresling is a spontaneous and innate act. Wresling began at the dawn of time along with brothers and puppies.

I think you hit the nail on the head