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darklotus27
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« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2009, 03:37:35 PM »

out here in the gulf of mexico we have a saying" you dont talk about politics and religion"

i was telling you that because you all were going around in circles talking about the same bs. it was becoming very argumentative in nature when one person tries to defend what he was talking about. but this is something different chainpunch. i got video proof that shows how slanted they are and  how they fight and how they have no class but still believe what they believe. i believe , according to 8bit, this is a fallacy Grin

now whether you want to admit it or not, if you stand opposed to ones position on a certain subject matter then be prepared to get into an argument instead of being in an harmonious discussion. i was just simply stating that everytime you told yoshi to quit it, he came back defending his post more and more. in no means would jdsgungfu and yoshi post become the collective few if you didnt step in. i would have let them act like children posting away about non sensical subjects if that made them happy. because in the end, they will still continue doing it.

as far as bullshido goes, let them think what they want to . we are all humans beings with their own dreams and thoughts and no matter what you do you cant tell them that their idea is wrong, even though the subject may be backed by actual facts. i would not care nor let what they think bother me. but do you notice how it turned from me putting up video evidence into this bullcrap? their is something very wrong with this website and i cant put my finger on it, i believe this is why my sifu does not care at all about what ppl are doing on the internet! because ideas and thoughts no matter how well writ they are, may be totally misunderstood and there in lies the problem
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the pint
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« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2009, 04:51:33 PM »

I agree let them think what they want, it really has no influence/effect on me. I dont have much interest in other arts failings, or shortcomings, other than how to make the most of wing chun against them. I wouldnt go around trying to dismiss them, it is of no value. A waste of time.

Some of these anti wing chun people are really really anti wing chun. It makes me wonder why, I really couldnt give a sh*t about their art(s). Really, I dont get their beef.
You have to question people that are so against something. They really have a problem with wing chun.

Personally I think is that they are using their style, and it's relative success in MMA as a crutch, to justify themselves, to big themselves and their weak egos up, and that they are trying to beat down wing chun from the anonymity of the internet because it makes them feel superior. In reality it doesnt.

Just because I train BJJ doesnt mean im a succesful cage fighter. Im a f*cking white belt! Even as I progress, BJJ's achivements arent mine. And why would I shout from the rooftops that Aikido is sh*t. I really dont have any interest, I vote with my feet, and dont study it. It could be good, it could be sh*t. I will never know. I dont really care...
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Southpaw
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« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2009, 05:44:51 AM »

As I've mentioned in the past, I've been a member of Bullshido since 2002 and overall think it is a pretty fair website.

There are definitely a lot of wing chun haters on there...but there are also a bunch of very experienced wing chun people, including a administrator/moderator who is long time student and close friend of (the late) Moy Yot.  So...there are people there that defend wing chun from ignorance and false attacks.

That being said...there are many reasons why people don't like wing chun.  The vast majority of people on Bullshido that are very vocal and bash wing chun are former wing chun students.  Ask yourself why this is the case...

Wing Chun has got some very real problems with regards to how it is taught and marketed.  This website is a direct counter to those problems...but we are the exception, not the norm.  The bullsh*t wing chun that so many people teach has provided us with a generation of former students who feel taken advantage of and duped out of their money.  I can't blame them for their feelings...and can only be thankful that I happened to find a wing chun school that even after 9 years since I first walked through the door, I can still be very proud of.  I don't think most wing chun students can same the same thing.



 
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the pint
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« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2009, 06:50:33 AM »

I had no idea, I guess I should feel fortunate to be proud of my school, it's style and my own personal development within the system.

I have never taken it for granted, but never really thought of what alternatives could be...
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chainpunch
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« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2009, 09:15:09 AM »

I see your point, but why blame the "snake oil" instead of the salesman?
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Southpaw
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« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2009, 10:52:33 AM »

Absolutely 100% agree.  Very good point...though I think sometimes from a "victims" perspective it might be hard to separate the two.


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whyguy
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« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2009, 11:12:13 AM »

 

 There are many martial arts that seem to have a large number of techniques that don't work. All of these arts have been tested out in various UFC/PRIDE and MMA tournaments. Their techniques AT FIRST SIGHT seem to be impractical and unrealistic.

It's extremely important to understand that we are not the only ones that are practicing things that don't seem useful for various reasons.

 One other key point is that the most likely reason that our techniques don't work is not that we have the technique completely wrong. Instead, it's more likely that we are missing the understanding needed to apply the techniques in a way that works in realistic fights.

I went thru this in Judo and in Aikido. I finally found some very simple solutions.
 In judo, you need a grip or you cannot throw. BUt in MMA nobody lets you get a grip so how can judo work?
 After many years of struggling with this, I watched SUMO. Sumo fighters charge in and get a belt grip. Then their throws work perfectly well. But, without knowing how to charge in and clinch, judo throws are useless. So, a few essential pieces of the art (of JUDO) were missing from my understanding and skillset. These few missing pieces rendered my skills useless for many years.


 The arts that fall into this bucket of seeming uselessness are
    Aikido,
    Wing chun and other styles of kung fu.
    Karate
    Filipino styles that use trapping.
    Non-Brazilian styles of Jiu-Jitsu.

  A few examples of techniques that seem to be useless in Wing chun would include:

  Lop Sau- never used in boxing or mma matches.--Seemingly simple to use, yet you never see it.
  If nobody seems able to use it, are we practicing something unrealistic? why practice it if it doesn't work that way in reality?

  Chain punches-striking arts are fully aware of this technique, yet it never seems to work in MMA matches.
    So, why practice this if it doesn't work this way in reality?

  WIng chun stances (pigeon toe)- When powerful, fast strikes are thrown by skillful fighters, you never see the defenders employing this or other classical stances.
 
  Why? Because you'll get knocked out, that's why! SO, why are we practicing a position that doesn't work in real fights?

  Sticky hand applications-when fighters get close they clinch, you never see realistic fights that resemble sticky hands drills at all. Why, because the attacker using the clinch will clamp onto your head or body and knee you or take you down. So, this leads us to ask why are we practicing sticky hands if it doesn't work the way we practice?

 Putting it all together, this means that we simply don't understand enough of the problem we are trying to solve with our limited understanding of wing chun techniques.
I had to study and test out many things before arriving at the simple truth that the problem is not with the techniques as much as it was with my understanding on how to set them up and how to use them.
 
 In short, we need to understand fighting, and not merely imitate formal ways of doing things.
 That means we need to understand how to use wing chun against boxing, against wrestling, against weapons, against weapons.
Thanks,
The WhyGuy


   


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8bit
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« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2009, 12:34:42 PM »

tl;dr

Hey, how about a link to those greco roman drills you were promising?
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the pint
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« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2009, 12:44:00 PM »



  WIng chun stances (pigeon toe)- When powerful, fast strikes are thrown by skillful fighters, you never see the defenders employing this or other classical stances.
 
  Why? Because you'll get knocked out, that's why! SO, why are we practicing a position that doesn't work in real fights?
 

You do realise that teh pigeon toe stance is a training stance? Not sure why you would expect to see it anywhere. It's a bit like expecting to see stabilisers on bikes in the olympics...
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Yoshiyahu
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« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2009, 05:47:58 PM »

Hey Pint did you realize what he was asking about why practice YGKYM if it can't be used in actual fighting.



  WIng chun stances (pigeon toe)- When powerful, fast strikes are thrown by skillful fighters, you never see the defenders employing this or other classical stances.
 
  Why? Because you'll get knocked out, that's why! SO, why are we practicing a position that doesn't work in real fights?
 

You do realise that teh pigeon toe stance is a training stance? Not sure why you would expect to see it anywhere. It's a bit like expecting to see stabilisers on bikes in the olympics...
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the pint
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« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2009, 06:04:53 PM »

Hey Pint did you realize what he was asking about why practice YGKYM if it can't be used in actual fighting.

Of course I realise what he was saying.

But if you ask questions like that about YJKYM and not seeing it in fights, your depth of understanding of Wing Chun is pretty low in my opinion.

When you have trained your stance, and developed a structure, you know exactly what YJKYM is all about.

Darklotus posted a link to a WC sparring clip tonight, and one of the fighters adopts a really wide YJKYM stance for a couple of moments there. Idiot or beginner? Beginner I guess. Although he is quite out of range, so you could argue it is fine and uncommited. Misunderstanding if you ask me.

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Yoshiyahu
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« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2009, 06:23:20 PM »

Whats with the people applying WC techniques from one end of the ring...They can not even hit you with a side kick but they want  to chainpunches all over the place before their opponent is even in bridging range...i seen this crap alot. Yea, But I don't think its wise to use YGKYM only in a fight. The time when I would use is in a clinch where i am close enough to throw elbows. Then you can use your waist and twist to give equal range of motion with your elbows and your parrallel turning can use to explode waist power punches. But when your in long kicking range i prefer a side stance....


Hey Pint did you realize what he was asking about why practice YGKYM if it can't be used in actual fighting.

Of course I realise what he was saying.

But if you ask questions like that about YJKYM and not seeing it in fights, your depth of understanding of Wing Chun is pretty low in my opinion.

When you have trained your stance, and developed a structure, you know exactly what YJKYM is all about.

Darklotus posted a link to a WC sparring clip tonight, and one of the fighters adopts a really wide YJKYM stance for a couple of moments there. Idiot or beginner? Beginner I guess. Although he is quite out of range, so you could argue it is fine and uncommited. Misunderstanding if you ask me.


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chainpunch
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« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2009, 06:29:13 PM »

Why guy again you bring up some valid points. The short commings of Wing CHun have not been witneesed in MMA as a matter of fact very little if any Wing CHun has been presented in sport fighting just because some one says they do Wing Chun does not mean they represent it with credability.

I present the idea that most people really dont know how to use Wing Chun they just know drills and not often the first clue as to how these tools can be used. You also mention traditional stances or training methods again if you dont know what is purpose is then you are right its of no use. To disregard the foundation of Wing Chun you should call it something else because without a strong stance the techniques dont stand a chance without knowing how to get a strong stance the drills and training tools are useless. Just because you stand in a pigeon toe stance does not mean you are getting any benefit from it even if you know why you are doing it.

The big problem with Wing Chun is not the outdated or obsolete routines is the reason behind the training and the details have been lost to generations for one reason or another.
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the pint
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« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2009, 06:35:48 PM »

But I don't think its wise to use YGKYM only in a fight.

Its like were having a conversation, but we definately arent having a conversation. I would never dream of using or seeing YJKYM in a fight. Not a good one anyway.

So I could say ' Hey Yoshi, did you realise that I was saying that we practice YJKYM and dont see it in fights because it is a training stance not a fighting stance'

It isnt a fighting stance. It is a training stance. AAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Unless it was a fight between a man and a goat, and the man wanted to clamp the goat with his knees for some reason. Like thats ever going to happen. Hence the nickname. Didnt you know?

(Im being faciecious but cant spell it)
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chainpunch
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« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2009, 06:43:01 PM »

Pint, I think his point is dont practice something you cant use. I think he is saying there is no useful reason to be in YGKYM if you cant use it. Maybe he does not se it benefiting his stance or he thinks strong foundation is not necessary.

It is interesting , Wing Chun says before kick training you should be able to stand in the single leg stance for 30 minutes. Most people never get to that point so either their kicking is not as effective or they never learn kicking. I can see from whys guys view that many kickboxers cant stand one one leg for too long and they have some strong kicks but they are also very vulnerable but in their world it evens out as the opponent does not have strong stability also. So maybe their is a point in abandoning old world expectations if modern people may not need them.
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